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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 6 2019, 12:34 PM EST | Post edited: Mar 6 2019, 12:34 PM EST
The winter hellatus is over and it's going to be hard to top the last few episodes between the threat of Dean burying himself alive in a watery grave and the completely emotional Lebanon 300th episode. Rowena figures prominently in this one as do Jack and Cas. It looks from the promo photos like Dean is having a rough time physically. Oh, and there's a demi-God that looks like he's into snakes. :) Here we go! I'm curious to see how this season and the "Michael issue" will end. And I'm SO GLAD there will be a season 15. Do you find this valuable?    
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kate38
kate38
1. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 7 2019, 9:07 PM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 6:00 AM EST
Some interesting twists in this one! Sorry for the randomness of this but…

The cannibalistic, eyeball-eating gorgon was pretty disgusting and creepy. And he talked WAY too much. I was glad when they finally killed him.

Sorry, but NO VETERINARIAN ON THE PLANET would leave a dog unattended on an exam table and leave the room. It’s a sure fire way to make sure the dog jumps or falls off the table and hurts himself. Bad, bad medical consultant for that scene :(

At first, I wondered why all the AU hunters were just “back”. But then I realized that they were all just cannon fodder for Michael, so I'm okay with it.

People have been asking on social media for WEEKS about what will happen when Dean inevitably gets knocked out. It was obvious that it hadn’t happened for several episodes, and normally the boys get knocked out pretty frequently. Who knew the solution to Dean’s Michael problem was as simple as that?

I’m glad Michael is out of Deans head, but I did NOT see Rowena-possession coming! I LOVE that this show can still keep me guessing and still surprise me after 14 seasons!!! And now I guess we’ll see what happens with Jack.

Did that ending seem too “neat” to anyone else? Jack magically kills Michael (using power he had all along, by the way) and eats his grace. Suddenly, Jack’s back (and I guess he can teleport now?) Dean’s cured, and Rowena is ok. It seems like (besides a bunker full of dead hunters to burn) things are suddenly fine and everybody is suddenly out of harm's way. At first, I thought they were setting up a moment of true happiness for Cas, but I think a bunker full of dead hunters would put a damper on that. And Cas is helping the Winchesters hunt in the next episode, so presumably he doesn't get snatched away by the Empty. We all know this moment can't last. Nick is still on the loose (and possibly Lucifer, too), and Cas is still in peril.

kate

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kate38
kate38
2. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 5:55 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 5:55 AM EST
...by the way, what's up with the snake? The Gorgon was keeping it pretty close -- are we sure it's just a normal snake? Maybe it wasn't such a good idea for Jack to keep it as a pet. But then again, if the snake goes wonky in some way, better for that to happen at the bunker than anywhere else.

kate
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kate38
kate38
3. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 7:26 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 7:27 AM EST
Okay -- unpopular opinion time (maybe)...

Some people are complaining that Michael/Dean wasn't around for long enough. Really? If he is truly dead, this was episode 14 of a 20-episode season. Only Mark-of-Cain Dean lasted longer. I don't get the argument that Michael/Dean was killed off too soon.

I sorta understand the argument that his death was anticlimactic. We've been led to believe that the archangel blade was the only way, and now suddenly Jack can dispense with an archangel using the power of his mind, which he apparently could do all along. I don't agree that it was anticlimactic. The Jack fans (I'm NOT one, but most of you guys know that) should be happy that Jack called himself a Winchester and killed one of the season's major big bads. He also killed the Gorgon, so this episode should've been a high point for Jack fans.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought this one was okay.

kate
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
4. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 9:55 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 9:55 AM EST
Will post...then read.

What happened here?!?!?! I mean, I watched it, but I did not like it.

I guess after the last two very emotional episodes, this one felt all wrong to me. I figured they would probably say nothing about the 300th episode and make it more of a true stand-alone. But they really said nothing. I wonder if they'll ever reference it again (Sam and Dean and "that time we had dad back for dinner").

Okay....my issues here....

I found the demi-God rather interesting; interestingly-acted character but we didn't learn much. He did a great job with the short time he had, but, again, what could have been a rather complex character was introduced only to bang Dean's head into the wall enough to knock him unconscious, thus allowing Michael to break out. That's the only reason that character was there.

The heartfelt talks between Cas and Jack I will have to watch again, but I'm just not feeling the emotion I want to feel there between them and they're both great actors....it seems like the writer thought "now it's time for another pair to bring the emotion in this one" and it felt forced to me.

Michael. Boy, do I not like this resolution. Michael or the threat of Michael or the mention of Michael has been around since season two Houses of the Holy. It really ramped up in later years with Adam and Zachariah...and I did find it intriguing that they revisited Dean as Michael's vessel for the main focus of this season (I thought that was the main focus this season). I may have some issues with importing Michael from Apocalypse World to do it, but I liked that they came back to such a main theme/threat from earlier years.

And this is it????? The end????? Of Michael???? Dean goes unconscious and Michael escapes into Rowena long enough to kill all the AU hunters...
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
5. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 10:02 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 10:02 AM EST
Good riddance to Maggie. A not-believable-as-a-hunter character and I could not figure out why she was still hanging around. But that whole mass murder by Michael was a way-too-convenient way to clear the bunker of "extra" people and go back to just Sam and Dean and Cas and Jack. They should have come up with something better.

Rowena; great actress but never a fan of the character. I never have been. I don't love it when someone goes from shifty enemy to ally. And that's what they did with Rowena. Suddenly they totally trust her with everything? I don't buy it. Suddenly selfish Rowena will say "yes" to Michael to save humans? The whole "temporarily inhabiting Rowena" thing seemed like it was only there to fully redeem Rowena AND kill off the extra AU characters.

Now...Jack:
I love love love Jack. So let me get this straight. Jack was using bits of his soul (thanks to being reanimated by magic and Lily Sunder) every time he used his powers to save someone. As when he saved everyone from the demi-God. Hence he was still coughing blood, right? His love for Sam and Dean and Cas led him to fully unload on Michael, regardless of the risk to his own safety when he used his powers at that level. That was sweet. It was also fun AGAIN to see how strong Jack is. As with Michael in the AU, I loved seeing Jack's full power. So he essentially exorcised Michael from Rowena and consumed him, thus consuming archangel Grace and that gave Jack back his full half-archangel power.

When you write it out like that it sounds so ridiculous.

But I love Jack at full power (I think; but I guess now there's a risk of him tapping his Lucifer side somehow???). It does show how truly powerful Jack is. Sam and Dean and Cas' Jack killed an archangel with only his own power.
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
6. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 10:04 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 10:17 AM EST
But I'm left feeling like the writers really wrote themselves into a corner with Michael. First Kaia's weapon would kill him...and the egg...and they were both destroyed. It did feel like they were losing hope and the episode with metal box 'o' death will always haunt me (and I liked that)...I thought the threat of Dean's watery suicide might hang over us well into the start of season 15 so I feel that the rug has been pulled out from under me a bit if this is the resolution to Michael and Dean can walk off into the sunset now. I feel a bit let-down.

Now I'm guessing that the big end of season cliffhanger will be that Cas will be happy (with Michael gone) and he'll be snatched into The Empty. Then there will be resentment towards Jack that he didn't tell Sam and Dean about Cas' deal.

But I really expected Michael to keep going until the end of this season.
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
7. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 10:12 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 10:12 AM EST
Oh yeah; reading comments....the Jack and the rectal thermometer was kind of simplistic humor. That whole scene really didn't have to be there.

I did not see the Rowena possession coming either. I think I said out lout to the TV, "You have GOT to be KIDDING!".

It was a weird touch for Jack to keep the snake which makes you wonder if it's more than just a snake somehow.

It's so funny, Kate, you like Rowena and not Jack and I love Jack and not Rowena. :)

I thought this one was sub-par. Below okay. I'd give it a 4 out of 10 partly because Michael's ending could have been sooooo much better.

Personally? I was voting for some scenario in which AU Michael came face-to-face with cage Michael in Adam's body! Some rule about how two AU archangels can't exist in the same physical space or something (some law of angel physics!). I would have been good with Dean almost dying in the Michael-extraction process and when he was finally okay, Cas being so happy that he was immediately snatched away to The Empty. Or cage Michael feeling compelled to fight Jack since he's half-Lucifer....so many ways it could have gone. Sigh.
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
8. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 10:13 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 10:13 AM EST
Bonus points for the atypical (non-stereotypical?) secretly-into-guys trucker. Do you find this valuable?    
journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
9. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 10:16 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 10:19 AM EST
I would have liked it better if the AU hunters had died fighting Michael/Rowena; gone down in a blaze of glory. They fought him in the AU...the deaths would have meant more in some kind of final battle. I guess that could have happened, but they were ambushed and we never got to see it. Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
10. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 11:48 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 11:48 AM EST
"Good riddance to Maggie. A not-believable-as-a-hunter character and I could not figure out why she was still hanging around. But that whole mass murder by Michael was a way-too-convenient way to clear the bunker of "extra" people and go back to just Sam and Dean and Cas and Jack. They should have come up with something better.



"
Agree 100%! It felt like they kept trying to find a use for her, but it just wasn't happening. I had a hard time accepting her as a hunter to begin with. But then when they put het in charge of other hunters, it became even more implausible.

It was starting to feel like the CW was checking off more boxes. "Hey, let's show a woman in a leadership role to demonstrate our diversity!"

Whatever the reasons were the actress didn't deliver, and Maggie's character fell flat for me.
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
11. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 3:54 PM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 3:54 PM EST
They should have thought about trying to make the woman in a leadership role much more competent! No way she would have been in charge when she was so new and uncertain. Well, she was put in charge, and now they're all dead. :) Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
12. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 4:01 PM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 4:01 PM EST
"They should have thought about trying to make the woman in a leadership role much more competent! No way she would have been in charge when she was so new and uncertain. Well, she was put in charge, and now they're all dead. :) "
HAHAHAHA!!! Good point :)
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kate38
kate38
13. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 8 2019, 5:46 PM EST | Post edited: Mar 8 2019, 5:46 PM EST
"
Michael. Boy, do I not like this resolution. Michael or the threat of Michael or the mention of Michael has been around since season two Houses of the Holy. It really ramped up in later years with Adam and Zachariah...and I did find it intriguing that they revisited Dean as Michael's vessel for the main focus of this season (I thought that was the main focus this season). I may have some issues with importing Michael from Apocalypse World to do it, but I liked that they came back to such a main theme/threat from earlier years.

And this is it????? The end????? Of Michael???? Dean goes unconscious and Michael escapes into Rowena long enough to kill all the AU hunters..."
I'll probably get shot for suggesting this, but what if Jack is lying about Michael being dead? It's not like we saw the scorched angel wing silhouette or saw any "proof" that Michael is truly dead. We saw a swirling cloud that dissipated and then we saw Jack eat Michael's grace.

What if Michael is still alive, but inside the most powerful creature that has ever lived (besides Chuck himself)?

Just askin'...
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
14. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 9 2019, 10:17 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 9 2019, 10:17 AM EST
Warning: I have not read anything of your comments yet. I am just going to spew my own disorganized thoughts here, because, well that's how the episode left me feeling.
After watching it twice I think part of what made the episode choppy for me was the directing. Maybe it was in purpose to throw us off and have us as confused and unsure of what's next as the characters we're? Well, they succeeded then, but I didn't like it.
For example the scene in the diner between Cas and Dean and Jack. To me the constant cutting back and forth between Cas' and Dean's conversation and what was happeneing to Jack in the bathroom was hugely distracting and prevented any real in-depth emotional response to either situation from me.
Somehow Sam felt emotionally stunted in this episode, like his curious lack of much feeling when Maggie is killed, and that was a crying shame after several STELLAR Sam episodes with Jared shining bright.

Will continue...
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
15. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 9 2019, 10:27 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 9 2019, 10:27 AM EST
Dean in contrast felt overly emotional. I understand that he is conflicted about letting Sam and Cas talk him out of the coffin idea (for now), of course. (Side note: I REALLY miss Crowley in these situations when no one will promise Dean to do the hard thing and Crowley used to dryly "be happy to"....sigh)
I totally didn't get Dean's outburst and destructo sweep through the med-bay. Was he supposed to be semi-conscious and fighting with or searching for Michael in his mind and this was the outward sign of it? Or was he all there and simply super pissed at the situation and everyone else? But then he sudden switch to total devastation was odd. If Dean was THAT mad he probably would have stormed off and "handled it his way".
That whole segment felt forced and awkward to me.

Apropos Maggie getting killed: I actually didn't mind that much as the character didn't work for me and I didn't see her as a believable 'second in command' for Sam, ever! But are we to believe that Michael killed her incorporially? Rowena was nowhere near her when Maggie collapsed, so how did she actually get killed?

Another puzzle moment for me was that Cas, Sam and Jack dragged unconscious Dean all the way back to the bunker BEFORE Cas tried to heal him?? Why?? Odd choice.

To continue...
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
16. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 9 2019, 11:37 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 9 2019, 11:41 AM EST
The vet scenes were also a bit too weird for me. Why not simply do a little B&E at night? Instead they come up with the whole elaborate ruse? And the vet leaving an unsupervised pet alone in the exam room.....NO WAY. Who the hell wrote THAT??
I GUESS, the set up was necessary so Rowena would have to do the transformation spell on Jack and therefore get a taste of the strange magic inside him, but they could have found a less silly way to accomplish that. I'm sure Jack would have agreed to let Rowena check him out for dangerous influences, if she'd ask him.
Anyhow, I didn't appreciate that whole bit.


What I DID like:
- The monster was new, interesting and nicely creepy! He talked a bit too much, but I enjoyed the overall story idea.
- Cas and Jack conversation about loss and sacrifice and how they needed to appreciate life for the moments they have with the ones they love felt genuine and deep and like a true connecting moment. Cas imparting some hard learned wisdom on the kid was nice.
- Rowena's letting show her softer side was endearing. I did believe her concern.
- Michael taking over Rowena was an unexpected twist for me and fun, even if it didn't last
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
17. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 9 2019, 11:44 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 9 2019, 11:44 AM EST
"Sorry, but NO VETERINARIAN ON THE PLANET would leave a dog unattended on an exam table and leave the room. It’s a sure fire way to make sure the dog jumps or falls off the table and hurts himself. Bad, bad medical consultant for that scene :(

kate"
Hi kate,
HA! YES, I had to think of you watching that and I thought the same thing!!
Also, the pet owners would most likely asked to go into the room WITH the pet, so I didn't get why they didn't do that here.
The vet could have left the exam room to get something in between and all the same conversation and theft could have happened then....

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
18. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 9 2019, 11:54 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 9 2019, 11:54 AM EST
"
Did that ending seem too “neat” to anyone else? Jack magically kills Michael (using power he had all along, by the way) and eats his grace. Suddenly, Jack’s back (and I guess he can teleport now?) Dean’s cured, and Rowena is ok. It seems like (besides a bunker full of dead hunters to burn) things are suddenly fine and everybody is suddenly out of harm's way. At first, I thought they were setting up a moment of true happiness for Cas, but I think a bunker full of dead hunters would put a damper on that. And Cas is helping the Winchesters hunt in the next episode, so presumably he doesn't get snatched away by the Empty. We all know this moment can't last. Nick is still on the loose (and possibly Lucifer, too), and Cas is still in peril.

kate

"
SHEEESH, yes, kate! WAAAAYYY too simple!

That's why I want to believe that this was a false victory! It would be very disappointing, if that was the the end of Michael after all this build up (AS JBB SAID, we have had Michael or a threat of Michael around since season TWO!).
Especially via Jack "evaporating" his essence with the volatile magic he gained from Lily Sunder!
I wanted at least a corporeal FIGHT, preferably with Dean as he was the one screwed most in the deal. Not just a convenient "poof, now all is well"-moment!

SO, I am thinking:
What if using this much of the dangerous power actually evaporated Jack's soul now?
And what if taking in Michael's grace willingly didn't only restore Jack's nephilim powers, but also got him a passenger...aka Michael?
That would make Jack (with or without Michael) HYPER dangerous...and possibly the next big bad.

PNP

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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
19. RE: Let's all talk about Ouroboros (S14 E14) here!
Mar 9 2019, 11:56 AM EST | Post edited: Mar 9 2019, 11:56 AM EST
"...by the way, what's up with the snake? The Gorgon was keeping it pretty close -- are we sure it's just a normal snake? Maybe it wasn't such a good idea for Jack to keep it as a pet. But then again, if the snake goes wonky in some way, better for that to happen at the bunker than anywhere else.

kate"
OOOH, interesting tought, kate!

Could the snake be host to one of the "loose" entities?

PNP
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