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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 15 2018, 10:04 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 15 2018, 10:04 AM EST
Not sure how I feel about bringing back characters who aren't really the real characters...they are Apocalypse World versions (only unsure because I loved the real characters so much)...BUT, that said, I love seeing Bobby again and I'm going to love seeing Charlie again in this one. Plus, Sam and Dean don't hunt together; Sam's with Charlie and Dean's with Jack and I'm really looking forward to that! Do you find this valuable?    
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kate38
kate38
1. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 15 2018, 9:31 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 15 2018, 10:50 PM EST
This one was a little silly, but I still found some things to like about it:

YAY!!! Dean got to actually EAT pie! Isn’t that like, only the third time in the whole series?

Both brothers kicked monster butt tonight, and neither got knocked out :)

I felt some of Richard Speight Jr.’s sense of humor in this one, like the Saturday Night Fever song, and Sam playing with that toy in the car. Those glimpses of humor were fun.

I’m glad SOMEBODY finally knows how sick Jack is. I’m surprised he was able to keep his illness a secret for so long. I guess now we’ll see what’s really wrong with him and what his fathers will have to do to save him.

I liked hearing some of AU-Charlie’s back story. The more they tell us about her, the easier it is to remind the audience that she is NOT our Charlie – just like Bobby is not “our” Bobby. I like them having different motivations, histories, and personality points that are new to us.

I also liked how they didn’t show us the evil girlfriend accomplice until near the end. I suspected that she was a witch – especially after she passed all Jack’s tests with holy water, silver, etc. But the necromancer-librarian thing is more fun and new. Aren’t the Thule the only other necromancers we’ve met so far? And now the psycho is in the wind and after Jack. That could get interesting. Speaking of the necromancer girlfriend, she was another Supernatural cameo. She played a college student in Halt and Catch Fire.

The rest of the episode sorta left me flat...

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I just don’t like or care about Jack. I don't find him interesting, and now he’s sort of annoying -- like Fredo from The Godfather wanting more responsibility. I truly don't care about his story. However, I’ll keep the faith and try to believe that his character will get better over time. LOL – I will be ”optimistic” :)

[...continued...]
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kate38
kate38
2. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 15 2018, 9:32 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 15 2018, 10:53 PM EST
[...continued...]

Unless I got their conversation wrong, it sounded like Sam was telling Charlie that our society doesn’t fall apart and turn violent after a period of time with no water, food, or other resources. Of course, Charlie was absolutely right – anyone who has been through a blackout or serious natural disaster knows that. I kept hoping that Sam would explain himself later, to prove that he's not that naïve, but he really didn’t. It almost felt like he had a longer explanation, but it got cut from the final program. Anyway, his argument was overly optimistic. I guess that’s the point of the episode – optimism. But there’s a difference between hoping for the best and being in denial about how horrible human beings can be to each other. I expected better from Sam.

Sam also doesn’t have the right to tell Charlie that she shouldn’t walk away from hunting. How horrible will he feel if she gets killed because he convinced her to stay? And his argument at the end about being there to save people who may then go on to save other people is technically true, but it's still normal to not want to live a hunter's life just for that thankless goal. And trying to use the example of the fly-monster – that going off on his own is what led to his death, is also unfair and heavy-handed.

I liked seeing the other fly-people reverently collecting the body at the end, but isn't it odd for for Sam and Charlie to leave the monster’s body behind like that? Why didn't they burn the body or something?

The biggest negative for me is that I missed the Dean and Sam broment in this one. The Dean/Jack talk and Sam/Charlie talk were no substitute for me. I guess the show is trying to further develop the relationships between the Winchesters and the other characters, but I kept looking forward to seeing Dean and Sam together at least at the end, and I was disappointed that it didn’t happen.

kate
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kate38
kate38
3. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 15 2018, 9:51 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 15 2018, 9:53 PM EST
Side note -- does anyone else find it odd that they're "improvising" how to kill monsters more and more often? In last week's episode, Dean bludgeoned a djinn to death instead of using a silver knife dipped in lamb's blood. And in this episode, Sam simply shot the fly-monster instead of using a blade dipped in sugar water. I'm guessing they staked the zombie boyfriend into his grave, but we just didn't see it, right?

I get that SOME of the monster lore is being altered because Michael has amplified certain monster species for his own purposes, but if every monster can be killed with bullets or beheading -- or "improvisation", things are gonna get boring pretty quickly.

Just my take...

kate
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
4. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 1:51 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 1:53 AM EST
I'm not sure what I think about this one yet. I didn't expect the silliness and the two monsters in the parallel story lines were both strange to me....both felt like an unnaturally far reach. A second-generation (at least) necromancer and a fly-human?

Our local station accidentally ran a block of commercials over part of Sam and Charlie's discussion, so I I think I missed some essential stuff there about Sam telling Charlie that hunters save people who save more people...I didn't get to see that.

I too felt that you really saw RSJ in this one...the funny parts (though some of that fell flat for me).

I give Felicia Day credit...she made me believe she was a hardened version of Charlie which makes sense after what she went through. I loved how, when she talked about Cara, she seemed more like old Charlie. More sunny. She was really good here.

Kate, it's funny how we feel opposite about Jack. I just love him and want to see him grow and it seems he really did in this episode, becoming more capable. I kinda wanted Dean to answer him when he asked Dean to tell him everything he knew about sex in a few seconds flat! That could have been funny. I did laugh at the scene of the fake confrontation between Jack and Dean in front of the necromancer....when Jack called him an old man. That whole scene was full of great, subtle acting on both Jensen and Alex's part. You expect Dean to go all "romance novel" on the woman and turn on the charm and it did not go that way. I really liked that scene.

So, I guess, I enjoyed the development of the characters here, but the episode's MOTW stories were a miss for me...they were very secondary and it made the episode feel scattered.

I agree that Sam would never think that a disaster would always bring out the best in people instead of the worst. Loved Sam's visible worry over hunting separately from Dean.
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
5. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 2:04 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 2:04 AM EST
I agree, Kate, that after Charlie's involvement with hunting and with Sam and Dean was what got her killed, it didn't feel right for Sam to encourage AW Charlie to keep hunting! Maybe he was just proud of what a capable Hunter she was without their influence.

I also agree 100%, Kate, that the change to "improvising" when killing monsters is incredibly lazy writing and it throws away a really important part of the show....learning established lore. Are we supposed to believe that they've just gotten so good and knowledgeable that they just instinctively know what to do now? That seems dangerous and also not interestingl!

I initially thought that the head-to-toe covered fly monster might be the black thing from the Empty. That would have been more believable. The whole concept of that monster was weird. Both monsters in this one were a big zero for me.

I'm glad Dean knows something's wrong with Jack. I expected Dean to call out to Cas for help when Jack passed out.

I missed the Sam and Dean monent too...but enjoyed Dean and Jack immensely.

This episode is the kind of episode that makes me miss what the show used to be.
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
6. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 8:28 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 8:28 AM EST
HELLLOOOO! I am back! :)

OK - didn't read anyone's comments yet - just want to unload my first impressions real quick:

Cute fluff.
Some really nice moments, but it over all seemed like a big waste of character potential.
Silly vs uninteresting monsters.
Unfocused writing with some REAL head scratch moments ("Dean had a pretty good wing man and that was you."??????? )

By the end I felt mostly anxious because with a shorter season I don't want to have fluffy, wasted episodes that don't accomplish anything real.

SIGH!

OK, in more detail:
I was very excited about the potential pair up of Dean and Jack and Sam and Charlie.
Out of the two pairings I got way more from the Jack and Dean story. There were some really nice moments, especially at the beginning in the bunker, with Jack voicing his frustration about sitting idle and basically speaking right from Dean's heart. Loved that.
I also loved to see that Dean called Sam to check in if he was ok with JAck going on a hunt - at least that's what it sounded to me like - and therefore FINALLY deferring to Sam's recent leader role! I wanted to have an acknowledgement that Dean was actually proud of Sam's accomplishments with the AU hunters and at least this little moment gave me a modicum of it.

I also enjoyed the set up in the library with Dean being the stern older authority figure and Jack the young "white knight" - that had me grinning. I really enjoy when the show is real about Sam and Dean's age. I mean, hunter years must be like dog years....so Sam and Dean are about 80 years old now. HA!
Jack fumbling around with holy water, silver coin and coughing "Christo" was also adorable. It reminds me a little of Season 1 Sam and Dean.
Unfortunately the zombie monster story was boring and uninspired to me, but hey, whatever.

Continues..
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
7. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 8:36 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 8:36 AM EST
Continued....

The other story line, however, left me mostly cold and very sad about it!

What wasted opportunity having Charlie and Sam talk about....really....nothing. What about the road trip with Rowena? What about Charlie maybe being curious about her other self and maybe asking some questions? How about Sam sharing why Charlie was important to them? (And NOT with the weird and disturbing comment about how Charlie used to be Dean's wing man....WTH?? Since when? Have the writers WATCHED the show? Sorry, but that really pissed me off. Charlie was a LOT of things to the Winchesters - kid sister, apprentice, sometimes sunshine and life force when things were bleak, fellow hunter, awesome side kick - but WING MAN to Dean is SAM.....period....the end.).
And Charlie's flip flop of "I'm leaving hunting" to "maybe I stick around" seemed odd and without real reason.

I REALLY wanted Sam and AU Charlie to connect on a deeper level. Maybe learn something new about Sam in the process, too. But Sam seemed mostly distant and uninterested and Charlie was surly and not at all as multilayered fun as real world Charlie. (And the little back story she told didn't change that for me either.)

Plus the Fly Monster was totally silly to me. Not scary. Not even icky. Just silly and below SPN standard.

So that side of the episode to me was a sad squandering of acting talent and missed story opportunity.

OK, reading your comments now.

PNP

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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
8. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 8:38 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 8:38 AM EST
YAY - Kate!!! PIE for Dean!!! Hahahaha.

And it looked like French Silk Pie at that, right? YUUUMMM!

Really has it only been three times for him to have had pie to eat on the show? I don't recall, but that would be a fun little fact to know.

PNP

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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
9. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 8:43 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 8:44 AM EST
"
I felt some of Richard Speight Jr.’s sense of humor in this one, like the Saturday Night Fever song, and Sam playing with that toy in the car. Those glimpses of humor were fun.

"
Hi kate,
I agree with you on the very Richard-esque humor. I enjoy MOST of that as well, because it's quirky and often an homage to something else he loves.

The thing with the spinner toy in the car, however, struck me as TOTALLY wrong. I can see JARED play with a toy like that to calm his nervous energy, but not in a million years can I see SAM owning that or playing with it. Nope - that didn't work for me.
And really, even Sam was THAT bored sitting in the car with Charlie that there was NOTHING better to do....like....talk?

SIGH!

I for one loved that the diner was "Dick's" and the decoration was a bunch of....roosters! That was fun!!

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
10. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 8:49 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 8:49 AM EST
"Side note -- does anyone else find it odd that they're "improvising" how to kill monsters more and more often? In last week's episode, Dean bludgeoned a djinn to death instead of using a silver knife dipped in lamb's blood. And in this episode, Sam simply shot the fly-monster instead of using a blade dipped in sugar water. I'm guessing they staked the zombie boyfriend into his grave, but we just didn't see it, right?

I get that SOME of the monster lore is being altered because Michael has amplified certain monster species for his own purposes, but if every monster can be killed with bullets or beheading -- or "improvisation", things are gonna get boring pretty quickly.

Just my take...

kate"
Couldn't agree with you more, kate!!!

It was odd and as a fan I feel patronized with stuff like that! Plus it's disrespectful to the creators and writers who came up with the complicated lore and rules!

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
11. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 8:52 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 8:52 AM EST
"
Our local station accidentally ran a block of commercials over part of Sam and Charlie's discussion, so I I think I missed some essential stuff there about Sam telling Charlie that hunters save people who save more people...I didn't get to see that.
"
Hey, JBB,
sadly...you really didn't miss anything interesting or revealing! Trust me. The whole thing was odd and as kate said not really a good point for Sam to make.

I was also kinda surprised over this, because have we/Sam forgotten how guilty he felt for having involved Charlie so deeply with the MoC research that it ultimately got her killed????

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
12. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 8:58 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 8:58 AM EST
"Kate, it's funny how we feel opposite about Jack. I just love him and want to see him grow and it seems he really did in this episode, becoming more capable. I kinda wanted Dean to answer him when he asked Dean to tell him everything he knew about sex in a few seconds flat! That could have been funny. I did laugh at the scene of the fake confrontation between Jack and Dean in front of the necromancer....when Jack called him an old man. That whole scene was full of great, subtle acting on both Jensen and Alex's part. You expect Dean to go all "romance novel" on the woman and turn on the charm and it did not go that way. I really liked that scene.

"
Yeah, I'm with JBB on this one.

I love the Jack character (and Alex's portrayal) and how he is slowly growing into both a more complete "human" and wanting to learn how to be useful and better as a hunter.

I SO wanted Dean to give Jack "the talk" at the end of the ep, not just because it could have been funny, but it could have been interesting to hear Dean's take on it now, that he's older!

I also loved the little moment where Dean looks at himself in the rearview mirror and says indignantly "Old man, my ass"!! That was hillarious!

PNP
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kate38
kate38
13. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 9:08 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 9:08 AM EST
"I also agree 100%, Kate, that the change to "improvising" when killing monsters is incredibly lazy writing and it throws away a really important part of the show....learning established lore. Are we supposed to believe that they've just gotten so good and knowledgeable that they just instinctively know what to do now? That seems dangerous and also not interesting!

"
Hi, JBB :)

I’m honestly not sure it’s lazy writing. They may just be taking the lore in a different direction, and they haven’t told us where yet. I just find it odd that it seems to be happening a lot all of a sudden – like they’re leading us somewhere with the idea.

They’ve rebooted the monster lore before, like at the beginning of season 6 when monsters decided to behave differently because the apocalypse didn’t happen. And later, we met shapeshifters that could morph without shedding their skin, and werewolves that don’t need lunar cycles to change…so this isn’t the first time they’ve ripped the rug out from under our feet in terms of monster lore. I keep thinking this has something to do with Michael, since he’s still the lurking big bad for this season.

Maybe they’re setting the stage for a new way to kill Michael. Right now, they have us thinking that an archangel blade wielded by another archangel is the only way – but Dark Kaia’s pig sticker can at least HURT an archangel, so maybe they’re slowly leading us to believe that they’re gonna kill Michael using that spear or some other “improvised” weapon.

kate
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kate38
kate38
14. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 9:20 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 9:20 AM EST
"YAY - Kate!!! PIE for Dean!!! Hahahaha.

And it looked like French Silk Pie at that, right? YUUUMMM!

Really has it only been three times for him to have had pie to eat on the show? I don't recall, but that would be a fun little fact to know.

PNP

"
HAHA!!! Yes, I think this is only the third time. He's come close many times, but I can only recall three times when we actually got to see him EAT pie:

Once in "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid" when zombie Karen (Bobby's dead wife) kept baking pies.

The second time was in Mama Mia, when Dean was making a TOTAL mess of himself eating blueberry pie. That scene was also a little sad, because it's when Dean found out that Mary doesn't cook and most of his favorite dishes from childhood came from the Piggly Wiggly.

There may be other times, but I can't recall any. And YES -- this is an awesome trivia question if anyone else wants to jump in!

And I bow to your pie expertise, PNP! I thought it was chocolate cream :)

kate
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kate38
kate38
15. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 9:52 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 10:32 AM EST
"Yeah, I'm with JBB on this one.

I love the Jack character (and Alex's portrayal) and how he is slowly growing into both a more complete "human" and wanting to learn how to be useful and better as a hunter.

PNP"
Hi, PNP :)

Yes, I know a lot of the fans adore Jack and love Alex, but he just isn’t doing it for me. I’m okay being odd man out on this one.

Hubby and I were talking about this earlier today, and his biggest problem is Alex’s portrayal of Jack. Although I have deeper issues with Jack, I have to agree. When we met Bobby Singer the first time, I was TOTALLY sold on that character. Jim Beaver IS Bobby Singer. Period. Other characters, like Rufus, Crowley, Jody Mills, Sheriff Donna, Castiel – even Charlie – are totally convincing. But I don’t get that from Alex. It feels like he’s pretending to be Jack, but not making “Jack” come alive. Samantha Smith and Danneel are similarly flat to me, like they don’t buy their own portrayals.

The other thing that bothers me is that the whole Jack thing feels forced. He went from being an omnipotent unknown to being "family" way too quickly for me. After all the Winchesters went through to save him (and, yes, Mary too), it took Lucifer less than 30 seconds to convince Jack to fly away to the stars with THE DEVIL. That wasn't all conflicted, self-doubting, gullible naivete on Jack's part. And after what he said about Dean recently – that they should kill Dean if it meant killing Michael – I’m even LESS convinced about where his loyalties are regarding Cas and the Winchesters. I still don’t trust him. And if/when he gets his powers back, I don’t know whose side he’ll take.

I’m willing to give the writers some more time to develop this character, but so far I’m not a fan. That said, I DO love that our fandom is so diverse and can have such opposite opinions about the same story points and characters :)

kate

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kate38
kate38
16. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 10:26 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 10:34 AM EST
"What wasted opportunity having Charlie and Sam talk about....really....nothing. What about the road trip with Rowena? What about Charlie maybe being curious about her other self and maybe asking some questions? How about Sam sharing why Charlie was important to them? (And NOT with the weird and disturbing comment about how Charlie used to be Dean's wing man....WTH?? Since when? Have the writers WATCHED the show? Sorry, but that really pissed me off. Charlie was a LOT of things to the Winchesters - kid sister, apprentice, sometimes sunshine and life force when things were bleak, fellow hunter, awesome side kick - but WING MAN to Dean is SAM.....period....the end.).
And Charlie's flip flop of "I'm leaving hunting" to "maybe I stick around" seemed odd and without real reason.

PNP

"
I thought the "wing man" comment was odd, too. Yes - Sam is Dean's wing man. Sometimes it's Cas or Bobby, and in purgatory it was Benny, but it was never Charlie. That felt like Sam was struggling to make a point, but it didn't gel.

I got the impression that those discussions between Sam and Charlie were only to set up something else that's gonna happen later in the season. Maybe AU-Charlie is going to get killed BECAUSE Sam asked her not to leave hunting. Will that make Sam further question his abilities and judgement as a leader? Will he blame himself for getting Charlie killed -- again?

I'm getting an odd tempo from this season. Several things are starting to feel rushed, awkward, or forced - probably because there are fewer episodes. And I agree with your other comment (in another post), PNP -- since this is a shorter season, hopefully we won't have too many fluff episodes. I'm fine breaking up the sadness and stress with a few light episodes, but we shouldn't have many more of these.

kate
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kate38
kate38
17. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 12:42 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 12:42 PM EST
LOL!! Does anyone else think that Dean repositioning the rooster was TOTALLY unscripted Jensen?

kate
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
18. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 4:25 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 4:25 PM EST
"HAHA!!! Yes, I think this is only the third time. He's come close many times, but I can only recall three times when we actually got to see him EAT pie:

Once in "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid" when zombie Karen (Bobby's dead wife) kept baking pies.

The second time was in Mama Mia, when Dean was making a TOTAL mess of himself eating blueberry pie. That scene was also a little sad, because it's when Dean found out that Mary doesn't cook and most of his favorite dishes from childhood came from the Piggly Wiggly.

There may be other times, but I can't recall any. And YES -- this is an awesome trivia question if anyone else wants to jump in!

And I bow to your pie expertise, PNP! I thought it was chocolate cream :)

kate"
Isn't that kinda the same type of pie?

GOOD trivia question....I don't know....

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
19. RE: Let's all talk about "Optimism" (S14 E6) HERE!
Nov 16 2018, 4:27 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 16 2018, 4:27 PM EST
"LOL!! Does anyone else think that Dean repositioning the rooster was TOTALLY unscripted Jensen?

kate"
ABSOLUTELY!!
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