Location: null

Discussion: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!Reported This is a featured thread

Showing 1 - 20 of 26  |  Show  posts at a time
2 | Next
journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Oct 30 2017, 5:57 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 30 2017, 5:57 PM EDT
This one could be a good one...deeper than usual with more insight into all that Sam and Dean have lost recently. It looks like lots of Sam and Dean and Jack screen time...all good as far as I'm concerned! Can't wait to watch and discuss! Do you find this valuable?    
Keyword tags: None
blaecsable
blaecsable
1. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 2 2017, 7:48 AM EDT | Post edited: Nov 2 2017, 7:49 AM EDT
"This one could be a good one...deeper than usual with more insight into all that Sam and Dean have lost recently. It looks like lots of Sam and Dean and Jack screen time...all good as far as I'm concerned! Can't wait to watch and discuss!"
Hey Guys,

I can't wait either! I tell you my week is from Thursday to Thursday. ; )
I predict (not really) Dean will be angry and Sam will be hopeful when they meet with the grief counselor.
:smile:

Sable



Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
2. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 2 2017, 9:08 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 2 2017, 9:36 PM EDT
Overall, a pretty good episode! Probably my least favorite of the season so far, but still a good ride with some solid moments and a lot to be happy about.

It was fun to have a MOW episode, although I knew pretty early that it was a shifter. By the way, did you guys recognize the dead psychic from season 7 “The Mentalists”?

I guess I’m supposed to be angry with Dean, but I still can’t get there. He’s not 100% right, but Sam isn’t either and I don’t trust Jack. I refuse to cave in to the swell of protests on social media saying Dean is being a jerk. Sure, he could be nicer, but he's being cautious and I'm good with that. Hey, he told Jack at the end of the episode that he "did good". That's probably as good as things are gonna get for now.

Interesting “counseling” session. Maybe I should rewatch season 12 again, but I didn’t think that Mary seemed closer to Dean than she did to Sam. Maybe Sam was talking about the fact that he never knew Mary before she came back, but Dean did? Anyway, to me it felt like Sam was bonding more with Mary recently than Dean was. Sam was first to follow Mary into the BMOLs, but I think she targeted him because she knew he'd be easier to convince. Dean tried harder to reach out to Mary when she bailed, and he was the one playing online scrabble with her and texting her. But that was HIM reaching out to HER -- if there was reciprocity from her, I must've missed it. Hmmm...I don’t know…I have to think about whether I agree with Sam’s assessment there. That said, I do agree with Sam that Dean shouldn’t assume she's dead – especially after what happened when Dean was in purgatory and Sam gave up on him. It’s pretty clear from the final scene that Dean currently finds hope too painful.


[...continued...]
Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
3. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 2 2017, 9:11 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 2 2017, 10:10 PM EDT
[...continued...]

By the way, I LOVE the broment at the end! It makes total sense to me that, as painful as it is, Dean and Sam both NEED the other to be on the opposite side right now. Sam needs Dean help him remain somewhat objective and to remind him that he shouldn’t trust Jack, and Dean needs Sam to keep hope alive about Mary and Cas. I love how even though they’re at odds on the surface, they’re still being who they need to be for each other underneath it all. As twisted as it sounds, it works for them.

So, the counselor can shift (from herself to Kelly) without getting all gooey, but the other guy couldn’t? Guess that means she’s stronger or closer to an alpha generation?

The writers picked a very nice way to bring Kelly back into the story. It gave Jack a chance to say things that he couldn’t say to Sam or Dean. And I really like the actress who plays Kelly, even though I didn’t care for Kelly as a character until the very end of her life. So it was nice to see her again.

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Misha in this episode. Alone in a darkened room with nobody to act off of, and he managed to create two totally different characters without any confusion. I'll bet Misha had fun playing with that accent :)

So, who was not-Cas in the Empty? It probably wasn’t Death, because he doesn’t sleep. It must be something we haven’t met yet. It’s nice to have an explanation for where demons and angels go when they die, but I want to know MORE.

AND we don’t know which of them came back to Earth, right?. The "other" Cas read Cas’ mind, so it would be pretty easy for him to leave Cas stuck in the Empty and come to Earth in his place. We’ve been told that Cas will come back “different”. Maybe that’s what they meant.

REALLY excited to see where Cas' story is going to go!! And if Cas is NOT the one who came back, how are they gonna get him out of the Empty?

kate
Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
4. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 2 2017, 9:52 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 2 2017, 9:52 PM EDT
To me, this was the first episode where the chemistry with Jack was "off". Maybe it was because it felt odd for him to be working a job with them. I suspect it was something else, but I can't put my finger on it yet.

And I find it interesting that as naive as Jack seems about things, he's keeping secrets already. He didn't tell the Boys that he remembered Lucifer reaching out to him before he was born (even though he clearly remembers those encounters) and as much as Sam is reaching out to him and bending over backwards to give him a chance, he hasn't told Sam what he shared with the counselor/shifter. I find that interesting.

kate
Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
5. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 2 2017, 10:43 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 2 2017, 10:43 PM EDT
"I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Misha in this episode. Alone in a darkened room with nobody to act off of, and he managed to create two totally different characters without any confusion. I'll bet Misha had fun playing with that accent :)
"
...and I wonder if he missed all the J2 pranks on set!!! LOL! Probably not :)
Do you find this valuable?    
journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
6. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 2 2017, 10:58 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 2 2017, 10:58 PM EDT
This might have been my favorite so far this season! I found it really interesting start to finish.

Since it ended with Cas, I'll start there. Kate, I never even thought that "bad imitation Cas" might have sent HIMSELF to earth (with Cas' memories) and left real Cas in the void, but knowing that Cas will come back "different", that makes all the sense in the world.

What was "other" Cas? Hard to know...he was a black, oil-like human-shaped thing at first. The accent Misha chose sounded A LOT, to me, like Alistair from the episode where Dean tortured him. "It" said this is where angels and demons go when they die....coukd it have been Alustair? If so, Cas should have figured that out...so it's probably some new creature we've never met before.

Sam's "you knew mom better" speech would have made more sense to me if he had made it BEFORE Mary came back last season and he got to know her a bit. Still, I took it as the feeling he's carried since childhood when he grew up without his mother. I loved the way the ruse of going to the therapist "for Jack" totally got away from both Sam and Dean and some real feelings escaped.

Great brother moments all the way through. Loved Sam trying to be peacemaker. Yes, Dean was being a jerk, but it was completely in-character and I'm glad they didn't let the "rude to Jack" routine drag on forever. Jack saved Sam. That means everything to Dean. More than when Jack freed them both from Asmodeus. I'm glad Dean gave Jack what was, for Dean, overwhelming praise at the end. Jack appreciated it.

Love Dean admitted that he needed Sam to stay hopeful about Mary so he could be angry. I hope we get a whole episode in the alternate universe at some point.

Jack. Perfect casting. He continues to be really good and very consistent. I really enjoy....
Do you find this valuable?    
journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
7. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 2 2017, 11:06 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 2 2017, 11:06 PM EDT
...watching him every time he's onscreen. I do.

I wondered why the shifter couldn't recognize another shifter. Really?

Dean sure left Jack alone with the therapist for a long time (good acting in that scene on Alex's part...I believed his emotions where his mom is concerned).

I'm glad Sam came clean with Jack about wanting him to help find Mary. Sam can be deceptive, but I think he does really believe Jack can be good...because it's a reflection of himself...dealt a bad deal but trying to make good choices.

I fear Sam and Dean (and us fans) will quickly come to love Jack....only for something horrible and Lucifer-related to happen to him. Or for him to "turn" and break Sam and Dean's trust in some horrible way.

I thought this one was good.
Do you find this valuable?    
journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
8. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 2 2017, 11:07 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 2 2017, 11:07 PM EDT
Sable...Hee hee...you're a psychic...or you've seen at least one other episode of this show. :) Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
9. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 6:05 AM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 6:06 AM EDT
"Kate, I never even thought that "bad imitation Cas" might have sent HIMSELF to earth (with Cas' memories) and left real Cas in the void, but knowing that Cas will come back "different", that makes all the sense in the world.

What was "other" Cas? Hard to know...he was a black, oil-like human-shaped thing at first. The accent Misha chose sounded A LOT, to me, like Alistair from the episode where Dean tortured him. "It" said this is where angels and demons go when they die....coukd it have been Alustair? If so, Cas should have figured that out...so it's probably some new creature we've never met before.

"
Yeah, that part just seemed too "easy" to me. And why would Cas sniff the air and bask in the sunshine like he hasn't experienced those things for a long time? Cas has only been gone for a few weeks, right? And he was asleep for most of it, so why would he miss sunshine and fresh air? At this point, I'll bet money it's the other dude.

I thought he sounded like Alistair, too! But whatever/whoever this thing is has been in the Empty since the dawn of creation, making sure all the souls stay asleep. Alistair was in hell torturing folks, and on Earth working more evil, so I don't think it's him. I think that was just Misha having fun with accents and mannerisms, and that Dark Dude is something we haven't met yet.

I even thought for a fleeting second that it could be Death, since Death once said he might be older than god, but neither of them can remember which one came first. But that doesn't work, either, because Death wasn't in the Empty all this time. He WAS down under for millenia (since the Great Flood, in Bobby's words), but he's been topside, bound by Lucifer, bound by the Winchesters, etc. So I don't think it could be him.

SO excited to learn more about this dude! I LOVE new lore :)

kate
Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
10. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 6:16 AM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 6:18 AM EDT
"I'm glad Sam came clean with Jack about wanting him to help find Mary. Sam can be deceptive, but I think he does really believe Jack can be good...because it's a reflection of himself...dealt a bad deal but trying to make good choices.

I fear Sam and Dean (and us fans) will quickly come to love Jack....only for something horrible and Lucifer-related to happen to him. Or for him to "turn" and break Sam and Dean's trust in some horrible way.

I thought this one was good."
I agree! And I love that Dean and Sam are BOTH sorting their feelings out (and each others) without hiding and without getting too touchy-feely. That's a delicate tightrope walk, and I think it's being handled very well by the writers and both actors.

I don't love or like Jack yet. I think Alex is doing a decent job, but I'm still on the fence about him. I DO agree with you that Jack will turn, though. I think the source of his power is dark, so every time he uses his power it turns him darker. I think he will WANT to be good, but he'll also want to help Sam and Dean by bringing Mary back, so he'll "sacrifice" himself and use his power to get her back for them. Of course, that's gonna pop his evil cork just in time for Lucifer to return and the two of them will end up together, which will force Jack to confront his evilness and choose whether he wants to be good (but powerless), or evil and infinitely powerful.

What do you think?

kate
Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
11. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 7:39 AM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 7:39 AM EDT
This isn't intended to be negative, but I'm starting to feel a little beaten over the head by the theme that you get to choose who you want to be, and that even if you're a monster you can choose to be good. We had it last week in "Patience", this week with the shifter therapist, and they're clearly talking mostly about Jack.

Don't get me wrong. It's a good theme and a good life lesson, but I just wish it didn't feel so heavy handed.

kate
Do you find this valuable?    
blaecsable
blaecsable
12. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 9:04 AM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 9:08 AM EDT
Hey Guys,

I liked the episode. I thought the Bro-moments were great! I loved Empty-Cass' voice ( I just hope he does not hurt himself with it). All the Boys are coming along- the big thing was Jack saving Sam won over Dean just a little.
I think a little differently...I thought that "The Empty" is his own entity and everyone who is there is sleeping...He is a force to be reckoned with because even GOD can have no sway in his domain.( except when Chuck kept bringing Cass back (huh?). I was thinking that it was mostly Cass who came back because the Empty just wants to sleep...I was thinking he sent Cass and a little piece of himself to Earth or maybe Jack missed something when he remade Cass.

Now for my question: Why does Jack have to be evil incarnate? I am asking for clarification here. Lucifer was corrupted by the Mark and rebelled against Chuck and Heaven and was cast out. He gave the Mark to Cain. Amara is a strong influence that is true, but if she was still in Lucifer shouldn't she be able to have sway over him in season 11? I personally think that Lucifer was freed from the taint and all we have left is an angry narcissist who wants to "smash up all Gods toys" and who happens to be an Archangel. I think Jack is free of taint and it is just " Lucifer's personality" he might have inherited. What do you think...

Sable



Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
13. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 5:05 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 5:05 PM EDT
Is anyone wondering why Castiel changed ties? In "Watchtower" when he died, he was wearing the same striped tie he was wearing in this episode. Fake-Cas was wearing the same tie. But at the very end when he wakes up in the field, he's wearing a solid blue tie -- with no stripes. What's up with that? Both Cas' were wearing the same tie in The Empty, so it doesn't help us figure out which one came back.

Curious...

kate
Do you find this valuable?    
kate38
kate38
14. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 5:15 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 5:19 PM EDT
"Now for my question: Why does Jack have to be evil incarnate? I am asking for clarification here. Lucifer was corrupted by the Mark and rebelled against Chuck and Heaven and was cast out. He gave the Mark to Cain. Amara is a strong influence that is true, but if she was still in Lucifer shouldn't she be able to have sway over him in season 11? I personally think that Lucifer was freed from the taint and all we have left is an angry narcissist who wants to "smash up all Gods toys" and who happens to be an Archangel. I think Jack is free of taint and it is just " Lucifer's personality" he might have inherited. What do you think...

Sable



"
Hi, Sable –
I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t think Jack is evil incarnate. He is half Lucifer, who’s supposed to be the most evil entity we know. But he’s also half human, which means he could go either way. Honestly, since humanity has committed more evil acts than the devil himself could’ve imagined, I’m not even convinced that Jack’s human half is gonna help him all that much (smirk).

I honestly don’t know if Lucifer was freed from the taint of the Mark. He gave the Mark to Cain at the dawn of human creation, but that hasn’t stopped him from doing lots of evil since then. So is it possible that between being corrupted by the Mark and then being locked up for so long, his nature is just evil now? Amara is clearly more powerful than him -- but I think that's because she's equivalent to Chuck, not because of anything to do with the Mark.

I’d love for Jack to end up being good, but it doesn’t seem to be leaning that way. This week, we learned that even though he has said that he’s sorry he hurt people, he admitted to the therapist that it’s a lie and he doesn’t feel anything. That doesn’t bode well to me.

kate
Do you find this valuable?    
PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
15. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 8:43 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 8:43 PM EDT
"Hey Guys,

I can't wait either! I tell you my week is from Thursday to Thursday. ; )
I predict (not really) Dean will be angry and Sam will be hopeful when they meet with the grief counselor.
:smile:

Sable



"
I SO agree, Sable!!
I am totally living for the show at the moment to pull me through the week!
You are not alone in this.

PNP
Do you find this valuable?    
PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
16. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 9:37 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 9:37 PM EDT
"I guess I’m supposed to be angry with Dean, but I still can’t get there. He’s not 100% right, but Sam isn’t either and I don’t trust Jack. I refuse to cave in to the swell of protests on social media saying Dean is being a jerk. Sure, he could be nicer, but he's being cautious and I'm good with that. Hey, he told Jack at the end of the episode that he "did good". That's probably as good as things are gonna get for now.

"
I honestly and truly don't give a flying fudge about what we are "supposed to feel" - are you kidding me? Social media is wrong 9 times out of 10 to me....and that is why I am HERE - amongst other caring, intelligent human beings who love the show and don't want to be negative just to be heard and reacted to!!!!!

I am not mad at Dean! Everyone handles grief differently! And I think the writers are doing an excellent job at portraying Dean very Dean-like! Repress and move on was always his MO in front of others and this is no different.

Yes, I wish he was handling it with a little more grace and understanding that he is hurting Sam with this ( I get why he isn't on the Jack-train!!)....but I do understand it and think it is in character.

The final Bro-scene of this episode was PERFECT because it summed it all up: Dean is allowing him to feel angry and bitter and hopeless BECAUSE Sam is holding up the faith and believe that there is hope...and he NEEDS that as much as he needs to feel his own pain.

They are in as perfect balance as they have ever been imo!!!

I really appreciated Dean jumping over his shadow in the end and giving Jack an inch! That's all the kid needs and Dean is able to give right now and I get it and it's enough. It was important and so so perfect in its smallness!

And Jensen plays it to perfection!

PNP
Do you find this valuable?    
PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
17. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 10:07 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 10:07 PM EDT
I really, REALLY enjoyed this episode!

There were some bumps - yes - like how did the shifter all of a sudden show up in Gloria's car as the dead son? (Dean since 96?? She looked more like is Grandma..,,I didn't get that choice or why she would go to a grief counselor 10 years later??.) Or like why did Sam first sift through the goo in the bathtub for so long before realizing that he's dealing with a shifter and make haste downstairs? Or like why did everyone wait so long before warning Sam when he came back to the house? You know - small stuff like that....bugs me!

But the rest....was very solid!

I absolutely ADORE Sam right now!! Imo Sam has it WAY harder than Dean at the moment, because he is keeping the hope alive, trying to keep Dean in check, making the best effort to include Jack AND still grieving himself all the while. He is carrying the big load at the moment and Jared is doing an AMAZING job portraying it!!!

I love the choices he makes of how Sam with Jack is different from Sam with Dean - both valid and super relatable, but both unique. too. I love seeing a softer side of Sam with Jack and the way Jared portrays it.

One of my favorite lines this episode was Sam saying to Jack that if anything "Dean appreciates effort". SO true and definitely a way to gain a modicum of respect from Dean. Well observed and played!

THANKS, Sam, for calling Dean out on being like John at the moment....barking orders and not taking anyone's feelings into account! Again, I get it....but someone has to push Dean's nose into it.

Jensen, of course is ALWAYS perfection! I LOVED the moment at the beginning when Sam asks Dean to give Jack a chance "for me" and the few silent moments of emotions playing out over Dean's face!!! Of course, Dean won't deny Sam right here and you could read it plain as day on Jensen's face-SOOOO good!!

PNP
Do you find this valuable?    
PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
18. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 3 2017, 10:34 PM EDT | Post edited: Nov 3 2017, 10:47 PM EDT
Another great moment was when Shifter-Dean walks into the living room and you could IMMEDIATELY tell that this wasn't Dean - brilliant Jensen again.

Yeah, ok, Shifter - no goo? Or at least not copious amounts of goo...Still, I did like the effect a lot, when Dean ripped his own face off!! Very cool!


Sorry to say, but my least favorite this episode were the "EMPTY" moments.
I thought the "entity" - although played with pazzazz by Misha, even with the WEIRD (German-esque, Allastair-esque) accent - was a bit odd. It bothered me that something THAT old and powerful was acting so strangely. It wants to stay asleep? Really?
Some other thing being awake in it's realm immediately make is strangely twitchy? I didn't buy it.
After all "no one has pull here. Not Heaven, not Hell. Not even G.O.D.", but you act like a spoiled brat?

And "all dead angels are there" ?? Really? Why not in heaven? When did this happen?

And I thought it was pretty predictable that we are getting the "Empty" as "fake Cas" back into the world. Even though that makes no sense to me either. It would have been more sensible for the Empty to send Can back. so it can go back to sleep.

But the REST....I loved.

PNP
Do you find this valuable?    
PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
19. RE: Let's all Talk About "The Big Empty" (S13 E4) here!
Nov 4 2017, 7:42 AM EDT | Post edited: Nov 4 2017, 7:42 AM EDT
"
Interesting “counseling” session. Maybe I should rewatch season 12 again, but I didn’t think that Mary seemed closer to Dean than she did to Sam. Maybe Sam was talking about the fact that he never knew Mary before she came back, but Dean did? Anyway, to me it felt like Sam was bonding more with Mary recently than Dean was. Sam was first to follow Mary into the BMOLs, but I think she targeted him because she knew he'd be easier to convince. Dean tried harder to reach out to Mary when she bailed, and he was the one playing online scrabble with her and texting her. But that was HIM reaching out to HER -- if there was reciprocity from her, I must've missed it. Hmmm...I don’t know…I have to think about whether I agree with Sam’s assessment there. That said, I do agree with Sam that Dean shouldn’t assume she's dead – especially after what happened when Dean was in purgatory and Sam gave up on him. It’s pretty clear from the final scene that Dean currently finds hope too painful.


[...continued...]
"
Hi Kate,
I see the Sam-Mary dynamic a little different. To me it seemed that Dean had at times a more "easy-going" relationship with Mary and Sam had a harder time to figure out what to do or expect from having a mom all of a sudden. I understood him following Mary into the BMoL as more of a way to try and prove himself as capable and worthy "at work" to her. Plus I believe what Sam said at the end of S12 about how it seemed like the organization could do more good on a grander scale and it was also just easier to follow that to lead. But Sam's involvement with the BMoL didn't give me warm bonding vibes between him and Mary.
And YES, I agree wholeheartedly that Dean shouldn't give up so easily especially because of the strong opinions he had about Sam not searching for him. Big difference here is at least the KNOW where Mary is and have a possible way to get to her....
Do you find this valuable?    
2 | Next