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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 2 2017, 10:37 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 2 2017, 10:37 AM EST
They're out of federal prison...Billie is dead...will Mary stick around? It sounds like this is a one-off episode with Alicia Witt as guest star (a very capable actress!). They'll be dealing with witches and magic and old grudges and Cas in trouble. I love the discussions here; can't wait to see what you all think of this one! Do you find this valuable?    
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kate38
kate38
1. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 2 2017, 9:39 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 2 2017, 9:42 PM EST
Another great episode!!

I LOVE how we’re getting all these flashbacks to earlier seasons in the recap. I respect the continuity.

I get sad when they fight and snipe at each other :(, but I do appreciate where it’s coming from, and it was well done. The tension between was believable and palpable. These guys have such flawless chemistry.

I respect Dean for showing some growth. He is worried about the cosmic consequences and Sam doesn’t seem to be. That feels like a bit of a role reversal, but I can dig it for now.

Considering Benjamin was supposed to be such a great fighter, he sure went down easy. Mirabel, too, for that matter. I did appreciate the choreography in the fight scenes, though. Is it just me, or have the fight scenes gotten a lot better this season?

And if Lily could track down the angels, why didn’t she START with Isham? He's the one she had the biggest grudge against, and it doesn't seem like she needed him to get to the others. Was she killing his angel buddies first to punish him?

I think it’s adorable that Dean could only wait outside the diner for a few minutes. And I love it that Sam knew EXACTLY when he’d go storming in because he couldn’t take it anymore.

It’s sweet that the Boys stick up for Cas like he’s their brother – even though they were just fighting. And it was very touching that Dean wouldn’t use the sigil because it might hurt or kill Cas – even though Isham was going to kill him. Castiel is truly the third Winchester brother.

By the way, why isn’t Castiel at full power? We know that Metatron used part of his grace for the spell to kick out the angels – does that mean that he doesn’t have his full complement of grace? He just seems to weaken easily these days.

[...continued...]
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kate38
kate38
2. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 2 2017, 9:39 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 2 2017, 9:56 PM EST
[...continued...]

Nice plot twist! I DO appreciate the writers’ ability to keep me guessing!

I think we say an interesting take on angel lore. A human can make significant use of Enochian powers if you’re willing to eventually give up your soul for the cause. But does the ending mean that Lily has lost most of her soul now? And Sam seemed pretty interested in being able to tap into the use of angelic powers. I wonder if this will become a factor when those "cosmic" angelic consequences come into play.

I felt for Castiel when he learned that Isham lied and they basically killed a child and ruined Lily's ife based on a lie. I guess this means that when Team Free Will really does find Kelly and her Nephilim, Castiel will have a difficult time trying to kill the youngster. And the way they’ve been hinting at the extraordinary power this thing will have, the boys may not be able to do it alone. This could get interesting!

And we had the privilege of ANOTHER powerful Castiel speech at the end of the episode. Not only did he apologize without making excuses for being misled, but he showed true human empathy, and made it clear that he understands Lily's need for revenge if it should ever surface again. Nicely done, again, Misha.

More on rewatch, but this was an entertaining episode that kept me guessing :)

Kate

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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
3. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 2 2017, 9:46 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 2 2017, 9:46 PM EST
Really enjoyed this one! But I have no internet at the moment and hate typing on my phone....So more later.
Just quickly what really stuck out for me was:
-.Lots of great 'trio moments'! Especially the car scene. Somehow I was reminded of early seasons John&Dean &Sam scenes....Just now it was Sam stuck in the middle! Lol
- very interesting misdirection story!
- LOVED how Misha was able to stretch his legs in this one and how Castiel was conflicted but also more commanding than in a while!

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
4. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 2 2017, 10:02 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 2 2017, 10:02 PM EST
"
I felt for Castiel when he learned that Isham lied and they basically killed a child and ruined Lily's ife based on a lie. I guess this means that when Team Free Will really does find Kelly and her Nephilim, Castiel will have a difficult time trying to kill the youngster. And the way they’ve been hinting at the extraordinary power this thing will have, the boys may not be able to do it alone. This could get interesting!

More on rewatch, but this was an entertaining episode that kept me guessing :)

Kate

"
Hey Kate,

I HOPE not....but I fear so!
If this Luci-Nephilim-being is really as dangerous as Castiel says it is....It HAS to go, no??
It will be interesting to see if we get a role reversal from the past episode with the 'Anti-Christ' kid Jesse from "I believe that Children are our Future", where CAS was gung-ho about taking him out and Sam&Dean tried to save him....

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
5. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 2 2017, 10:06 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 2 2017, 10:06 PM EST
"

By the way, why isn’t Castiel at full power? We know that Metatron used part of his grace for the spell to kick out the angels – does that mean that he doesn’t have his full complement of grace? He just seems to weaken easily these days.

[...continued...]"
Hey K, again,
THAT totally confused me, too!! I thought he WAS at full power, other than his wings/teleportation abilities.... I didn't get why he got so tired after healing Isham??

Mistake or something else going on??

PNP
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kate38
kate38
6. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 3 2017, 5:39 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 3 2017, 5:51 AM EST
"Hey K, again,
THAT totally confused me, too!! I thought he WAS at full power, other than his wings/teleportation abilities.... I didn't get why he got so tired after healing Isham??

Mistake or something else going on??

PNP"
Great question, PNP!

My first guess is that it's part of the "cosmic consequences" Billie was talking about. That maybe Castiel is slowly dying or slowly being stripped of his angelic whatever as part of his punishment. But he has seemed weaker than normal for a while now, so I don't think I can blame what happened with Billie.

Could this be residual damage from being possessed by an archangel? He's not a drooling mess in a wheelchair, but maybe he has been damaged in some way because of that. (By the way, president Rooney got off pretty easy, too, didn't he?)

Or maybe he's been cut off from heaven's power again and we just haven't been told yet?

Something has to be going on...
Kate
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kate38
kate38
7. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 3 2017, 5:45 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 3 2017, 6:02 AM EST
Speaking of Castiel...POOR Cas!! He's really a pariah among the angels, isn't he? Angels are so absolute in their thinking that if you add up all the stuff they blame him for (including stopping the apocalypse, starting a civil war in heaven, releasing Lucifer, helping Metatron kick all the angels out of heaven, unleashing the Darkness, etc.), some of them seem to really want to do him harm -- even angels he considered his friends. I'm surprised there aren't already hit squads scouring the Earth looking for him.

He truly did give up everything that was his life when he chose to side with the Winchesters.

On another note, I really like the way the writers handled this episode. They could very easily have made this a one-off MOW episode, but they added some important back story on Cas, added some great conversations and broments between Cas and the Winchesters, and gave the episode more importance than a regular MOW story. I appreciate that.

Kate
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Wandlimb
Wandlimb
8. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 3 2017, 11:44 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 3 2017, 11:49 AM EST
I was prepared to dislike Alicia Witt's character with her eyepatch caricature look but she won me over. I especially liked her connection with Sam about losing your soul. I didn't see the Isham twist coming. I wonder if the three hunters were written sitting on one side of the booth or if they come up with that when filming? Great gag.

That they would find the discarded angle blade seemed improbable. Wasn't it a crime scene? Whatever, minor distraction. I found Dean's grudge against Cas ridiculous. Part of the fallout from the super lame previous episode, I suppose.

Burning question: why was Benjamin obsessed with Rampage?

Cas seems really off to me in this episode (the previous one). Why is he so down and emo?

Also, why are Sam and Dean any sort of a match for Isham, the angel? He should easily over-power them.
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
9. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 3 2017, 8:48 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 3 2017, 8:48 PM EST
OK, Y'All.
I really really liked this episode.

I agree with Kate that the writer(s) found a really good way to make a potentially MoW episode into something more connected to the roots and past of the show.

I loved to find out a little about Cas' back story. And this one was intelligently done, considering that we may become intimately more familiar with the Nephilim lore (due to Lucifer's hell spawn) and THOUGHT this was the first venture into Nephilim lore.

NICE misdirect from the writer - btw. The episode kept me guessing and the back story of Lilly and the jealous dick-angel Isham was a nicely touching.

I for one also LOVED the discord between Cas and Dean, BECAUSE I felt like it was not going to be permanent or really going to cause a rift. It felt to me, maybe truly for the first time, like Cas and Dean had a REAL brotherly spat (like the Sam and Dean used to have) - unreasonable, petty, childish in parts, but caused by deep concern and brotherly love for each other and the consequent fear that the other will come to harm. I can deal with that, because that type of fighting actually is the Winchester's way to say "I love you, bro!" And Dean said it in the end - he is concerned, because cosmic consequences tend to bit the Winchesters in the a**.
So, I liked the conflict.

Also, like I said before - LOVED the way Sam and to play referee for a while. New role for him.

I absolutely ADORED the three stooges on the bench moment at the diner! HA. I would guess that that was improvised - Wandlimb - it felt like it.

I also really enjoyed Alicia Witt (Lilly). She played the slightly disconnected - souless ? - person pretty well. (And I loved her on The Walking Dead).

Isham was upsetting and disturbing to me - partially because he is supposed to, I guess, and patrially because he reminded me of a old high school flame....haha.

PNP
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Wandlimb
Wandlimb
10. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 4 2017, 11:12 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 4 2017, 11:12 AM EST
"I for one also LOVED the discord between Cas and Dean, BECAUSE I felt like it was not going to be permanent or really going to cause a rift. It felt to me, maybe truly for the first time, like Cas and Dean had a REAL brotherly spat (like the Sam and Dean used to have) - unreasonable, petty, childish in parts, but caused by deep concern and brotherly love for each other and the consequent fear that the other will come to harm. I can deal with that, because that type of fighting actually is the Winchester's way to say "I love you, bro!" And Dean said it in the end - he is concerned, because cosmic consequences tend to bit the Winchesters in the a**.
So, I liked the conflict.

Also, like I said before - LOVED the way Sam and to play referee for a while. New role for him."
I like your take on the "unreasonable, petty" argument, PNP -- you're right, that sort of fight is realistic, or so I've observed in other. ;-) Also enjoyed Sam being referee.

So Alicia Witt was on TWD? I haven't watched that. Good actress. Isham was also really well acted, and disturbing. Sort of a shame they killed him off -- I like a good villian. :)
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
11. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 4 2017, 12:33 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 4 2017, 12:33 PM EST
"I like your take on the "unreasonable, petty" argument, PNP -- you're right, that sort of fight is realistic, or so I've observed in other. ;-) Also enjoyed Sam being referee.

So Alicia Witt was on TWD? I haven't watched that. Good actress. Isham was also really well acted, and disturbing. Sort of a shame they killed him off -- I like a good villian. :)"
Hi Wandlimb,
yes, Alicia Witt was in the episode "The Same Boat" of the Walking Dead - Season 6 - where Maggie and Carol are captured by some of the Saviors and held in that slaughterhouse. Alicia was the main captor and ends up a zombie...really good ep.

PNP
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
12. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 4 2017, 2:04 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 4 2017, 2:04 PM EST
I agree with all comments; but I did like the last episode more than Wandlimb. (Wandlimb, BTW; I sent you a message through the wiki messaging system near the end of last year; did you get it?).

Anyway, I too thought Dean's anger at Cas was horribly misplaced, but, as PigNaPoke said, it WAS very "brotherly" and this episode really cemented the fact that Cas is the 3rd Winchester brother (sorry, Adam). Both on Cas' side (as you said, the angels have no love for him at all now) and Sam and Dean's side (as seen by how Dean would not let Cas talk to Isham alone; he would have done the same thing with Sam...and you could tell by how mad he was at Cas for putting his own - Cas' - safety on the line with "cosmic consequences" in order to save the Winchesters). I also thought the bad angels were better-developed than the usual one-episode character and I like the writing and found it interesting overall. I didn't see the twist coming (that Lily's child was human and Isham essentially killed her out of jealousy over Lily moving on). I liked this one.

I have no idea what's going on with Cas' power or lack thereof. I'm glad they brought back the "burned wings" effect when an angel dies.

Alicia Witt WAS a very capable actress here (as I thought she'd be) and I'm glad she didn't die...though she seems to be in peril as her soul is being chipped away at. I did love her talk with Sam and the way that she was "bad" in that she might have been trying to kill Cas for what he was part of years ago...BUT, she didn't automatically also hate or try to kill Sam and Dean. She was more smart and focused.

There were many good moments (the three of them on the bench being one)...I'm recapping this one so I look forward to watching it again for that.
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catleigh
catleigh
13. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 5 2017, 10:07 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 5 2017, 10:07 PM EST
Well, I really enjoyed this one! The whole theme of Dean being pissed at (and pissy with) Cas, was so consistent to Dean’s character. I loved that Cas didn’t back down and gave Dean some serious shade right back, too. And, watching Sam being the intermediary/peacemaker was fun (JP had a field day with the eye rolls and faces he gave them both).

Totally agree with PNP that the trio interactions in this ep cemented Cas as a real Winchester brother. That being said, there were so many great ‘broments’ in this one. Like Dean storming into the diner, right when Sam knew he would. Like the three of them crowding onto the bench at the booth. (I wonder how many times JP fell off while filming, it looked pretty precarious there on the edge.) Like Sam rushing back with Lily in tow once he realized how much danger Dean and Cas were in from Isham. Like Dean getting all defensive and doing a complete 180 about being mad at Cas when Isham was insulting Cas—the whole, “nobody gets to be mean to my brother---except me” thing. And, of course, Dean not using the angel-blasting sigil because it might kill Cas.

I thought it was interesting and revealing that Isham was able to be with Lily, teach her all the angels’ secrets, and then still deceive other angels into killing her guardian and child with his fake nephilim story. If Cas could feel Lucifer’s nephilim come into being, why didn’t the same thing happen for the one he killed in S8 and this supposed one? Guess it could be the whole archangel thing, but still odd. And I guess that heaven’s ‘chain of command’ was pretty strict and angels really were rule/order followers since nobody questioned Isham circa 1901 at all. And Isham-the-obsessed-stalker was really a disturbing take on an angel—guess things were falling apart in heaven pretty badly even before the apocalypse if an angel could behave that badly with impunity.

--cont'd--

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catleigh
catleigh
14. RE: Let's all talk "Lily Sunder has Some Regrets" (S12 E10) here!
Feb 5 2017, 10:10 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 5 2017, 10:10 PM EST
--continuing--
Not so many nit-picks and plot holes this week, which is a nice change from some recent eps. But, It really bugged me that Isham sent Mirabel out alone to scout things out AND then she decides to go check out the alley--the deserted alley--for no apparent reason. Classic horror movie stupidity—we know something really big and bad is out to get us, hey, let’s split up and wander into isolated places alone and make it really easy for whatever it is to kill us!

This ep opened up more questions about the angels and their powers, though. We have kind of established that Cas has his grace back and is at full power except for not being able to teleport and time travel (not clear why these limitations). In this one, the dialogue between Isham, Mirabel, and Cas makes it sound like all the angels lost the teleport ability when they fell—and haven’t gotten it back. But, Billie didn’t seem to be having any trouble, so are reapers immune? I also liked seeing the ‘burnt wings’ effect when angels died making a comeback—but if they all lost their wings, how does that make sense? And why couldn’t Isham heal himself (Lilly did, using her ‘angel magic’)? Was he too weak? Is Cas’s weakness after healing Isham another symptom of the powers lost when the angels fell? It’s all very confusing, and kind of feels like the writers are flailing a bit (or just leaving us flailing, if they know what’s going on…which is kind of mean). Also, not sure I like the idea of a human being able to just learn ‘angel magic’ and use it—I thought angels’ powers came from their grace and from being an angel—a separate species from humans. If a human could just give up parts of their soul and get angel powers from that, wouldn’t Cas have been at least a little tempted, back in Season 9?

Still, overall a good episode with great brother moments. Looking forward to next week!



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