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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 26 2016, 12:32 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 26 2016, 12:32 AM EDT
Looks like a bit of a MOTW Halloween episode. Looks like Mary's going hunting. Do you find this valuable?    
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
1. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 9:09 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 9:09 PM EDT
"Looks like a bit of a MOTW Halloween episode. Looks like Mary's going hunting."
Hey All,

can't wait! From the stills it almost looks like they are staying at a nicer motel....for mom, maybe?

And there seems to be a rollaway cot in one of the pics....who's has to be the poor person sleeping on THAT?

Probably not Sam...

Anyhow, catch you later.

PNP
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kate38
kate38
2. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 10:50 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 10:50 PM EDT
Okay – LOVED this episode!! It had everything – funny, sad, creepy, tender – the total package!

Creepy ghost story complete with creepy ghost children -- classic SPN.

Agents Beyonce and Zee -- HILARIOUS!!! And Agents Partridge, Cassidy, and Bonaducci is equally inspired :)

I thought the Crowley/Cas buddy comedy was funny, too. Cas fixing his already perfect hair was adorable. Cas plays a great “good cop”, too. I had fun watching the comfortable chemistry between Mark and Misha.

And Rowena was great in this episode! Don’t mess with the Ginger, Luci!!

Unfortunately, they’re still being REALLY heavy handed with the Dean-is-like-Mary thing. It’s really annoying. Yes, on the surface they may have some superficial things in common (taste in food, taste in music, dislike for drawn-out discussions, etc.), but he’s a much better human being than she ever was. Dean has NEVER been as selfish as Mary is and was.

[...continued...]
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
3. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 10:51 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 10:51 PM EDT
Hi All,

I will rewatch before I comment much.

I am a little torn on what to think.

One thing's for sure, the final scene was a KILLER! Dean's minute step back from his mom, when she tells them that she has to leave and Sam's whole body flinch when the door slams.....broke my heart! BOTH Jared and Jensen were incredible again in a "non verbal" scene.

Although I sympathize with Mary and her struggle to find a way to "be"....and I understand her confusion and that she misses what she lost....like yesterday...I do NOT understand how she can leave the men who are her boys who are just as confused and trying to adjust as she is. Running away won't fix that! I am disappointed in her.

I was also a little surprised that Dean was the enabler and Sam the concerned party about Mom going Hunting with them. I somehow expected it the other way around.

MoW was ooookay....nothing exciting or new, but a solid ghost story and I can appreciate that.

Really appreciate Rowena standing up to Lucifer and kicking him in the shin, so to speak.... Good One. Also a nice show of her possible true powers.

The Crowley and "Angel Beyonce" buddy search for Lucifer seemd to forced for me....too obviously going for lame comic relief. It didn't work for me.

But like I said....I'll watch again. Maybe something else pops.

Other than that....solid MoW ep in my book, but nothing to get too excited about.

PNP
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kate38
kate38
4. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 10:51 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:16 PM EDT
[...continued...]

I’m trying very hard to give Mary a chance, but I still don’t like her. She rushed off to the ghost house without proper preparation (or backup) and ended up getting her boys almost killed trying to save her. Then, she doesn’t even apologize for going off half-cocked. INSTEAD, Dean apologizes to HER!! But Dean and Sam didn’t do anything wrong. Yes, she was right about the ghost, but she almost got herself killed twice in the same episode. She is clearly NOT ready to be alone in this world.

By the way, I don’t get why she cut her hair. She had long hair in all the previous appearances – including when she was young and still a hunter, so she clearly wasn’t worried about bad guys grabbing her hair back then. I don’t get the hair cut…

Interesting to learn that Mary was in heaven all this time. I thought she’d be in hell. Interesting.

Hey, why didn’t the iron chain eject the ghost immediately from Mary’s body?

I get why Mary is leaving and I personally think it’s the best thing for the Boys over the long term. Of course, she won’t STAY gone.

Also, I’m sure this works WONDERS for Dean’s abandonment issues. He’ll figure a way to blame himself for everything – especially since Amara brought Mary back because she thought it’s what Dean wanted/needed. Now he’ll blame himself for her being ripped out of heaven, and he’ll blame himself for her leaving. Would it have been too much to ask for her to make sure Dean and Sam know that her leaving is NOT their fault and has NOTHING to do with them? Thanks for nothing, Mary!

Poor, poor Dean – in so much pain that he can barely look at her. Heartbreaking…simply heartbreaking. Jensen knocked that scene out of the park.

Kate



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kate38
kate38
5. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:00 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:11 PM EDT
"
Although I sympathize with Mary and her struggle to find a way to "be"....and I understand her confusion and that she misses what she lost....like yesterday...I do NOT understand how she can leave the men who are her boys who are just as confused and trying to adjust as she is. Running away won't fix that! I am disappointed in her.

PNP"
I agree with you, but I think the reason is Mary's selfishness. She ignored her demon deal because SHE wanted a life away from hunting. Her selfish choice destroyed her sons' lives. Now, she's been in heaven (apparently) all these years reliving that idyllic family life she wanted all along. So, she's willing to hurt her sons again by leaving them, because she'd rather have her own, selfish, perfect MEMORIES of them than to have her flesh and blood sons in her life.

She's still fixated on the fact that she missed their baby teeth and their childhood landmarks. She is TOTALLY forgetting that THEY missed having their mother -- which was also very significant (or should be). It 's like she's thinking only about her own loss, but she's not thinking about theirs at all. Again...selfish.

She says she misses John. But she completely overlooks the fact that the BIG secret she kept from John led him down the path that killed him.

How about recognizing that you made some choices that ripped you out of their childhoods, but maybe TRY to see if you can to anything to make their lives better NOW? How about trying to help THEM with transitioning you into their lives. They don't need you anymore as a "mother", but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do what you can. Maybe they need you as a friend or confidante -- more of an equal. But she's not thinking about them -- only about herself. And she expects them to understand.

Will she ever choose her sons' happiness over her own?

Kate
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
6. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:08 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:08 PM EDT
"Unfortunately, they’re still being REALLY heavy handed with the Dean-is-like-Mary thing. It’s really annoying. Yes, on the surface they may have some superficial things in common (taste in food, taste in music, dislike for drawn-out discussions, etc.), but he’s a much better human being than she ever was. Dean has NEVER been as selfish as Mary is and was.

[...continued...]
"
Hi Kate,

it's so funny, but that part doesn't really bother me. :) To me it actually seems more like DEAN trying to see these similarities, than they are really here.

I mean the taste of music is easy to explain away....she had it first....it's from her decade. HA.

Love of the car....she knew it first....it reminds her of John.

Short discussion style.....well, have you met her dad??? HA.

Love for food....ok, you can read a lot into that....but really, it's just food.

I do wholeheartedly agree however, that Dean is the FAR superior human being and Mary proved her selfishness again tonight....

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
7. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:13 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:13 PM EDT
"[...continued...]

I’m trying very hard to give Mary a chance, but I still don’t like her. She rushed off to the ghost house without proper preparation (or backup) and ended getting her boys almost killed trying to save her. Then, she doesn’t even apologize for going off half-cocked. INSTEAD, Dean apologizes to HER!! But Dean and Sam didn’t do anything wrong. Yes, she was right about the ghost, but she almost got herself killed twice in the same episode. She is clearly NOT ready to be alone in this world.

By the way, I don’t get why she cut her hair. She had long hair in all the previous appearances – including when she was young and still a hunter, so she clearly wasn’t worried about bad guys grabbing her hair back then. I don’t get the hair cut…
"
Hi K,

I have to say that I DO understand some of these behaviors from Mary. She is trying to fit in, make a change, be useful, not the side-lined "old lady".

The hair is probably just about reinventing herself, NOT look like her old self.

Of course, you are right about being unprepared and endangering the boys with her actions and that is in-excusable, however, I have the sneaking suspicion that she doesn't quite feel yet that these are HER boys....

She is simply too disconnected from reality so far.

HOPEfully it'll change before she'll "go" for good.

PNP
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
8. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:19 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:19 PM EDT
"
Interesting to learn that Mary was in heaven all this time. I thought she’d be in hell. Interesting.

Hey, why didn’t the iron chain eject the ghost immediately from Mary’s body?

"
Hi Kate,

I thought the Heaven comment was interesting as well. ESPECIALLY because she said that she was there WITH them!!! So far every time we've seen Heaven only the DEAD souls were there, right? I mean, Bobby was sitting alone....why didn't he have his wife or the Boys with him, if that was possible? Ash was alone at the Roadhouse - other than visiting Pamela. Sam and Dean had each other and some memories, but not a complete "happy family" scenario.
So why or HOW did she?

And I agree with you, too, on the iron chain...that wasn't logical.

PNP
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kate38
kate38
9. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:26 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:27 PM EDT
"Hi Kate,

I thought the Heaven comment was interesting as well. ESPECIALLY because she said that she was there WITH them!!! So far every time we've seen Heaven only the DEAD souls were there, right? I mean, Bobby was sitting alone....why didn't he have his wife or the Boys with him, if that was possible? Ash was alone at the Roadhouse - other than visiting Pamela. Sam and Dean had each other and some memories, but not a complete "happy family" scenario.
So why or HOW did she?

And I agree with you, too, on the iron chain...that wasn't logical.

PNP"
Hey, PNP:)

Hubby asked that same question!

I think you're both right. Jimmy had to wait for Amelia to actually die to be reunited with her, so I think you don't get the actual "person" in your little heaven until that person dies.

But you apparently CAN have a repeating memory. Sam had a holiday dinner with an entire family that was probably still alive. So, some people's heaven apparently consists of a frozen-in-time memory on a repeating loop. Using that logic, Mary can re-live having her children (frozen at those ages). I guess she could also have her time-locked memory of John, too.

Interesting that, assuming John went to heaven at the end of AHBL, they never found each other.

What do you think?

Kate
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
10. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:26 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:26 PM EDT
"

How about recognizing that you made some choices that ripped you out of their childhoods, but maybe TRY to see if you can to anything to make their lives better NOW? How about trying to help THEM with transitioning you into their lives. They don't need you anymore as a "mother", but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do what you can. Maybe they need you as a friend or confidante -- more of an equal. But she's not thinking about them -- only about herself. And she expects them to understand.

Will she ever choose her sons' happiness over her own?

Kate"
COMPLETELY agree with you on all points!

I am just saying, I do understand that she IS confused and needs some time to adjust - however, I believe that time should be spent TOGETHER with the boys and not apart.

Especially after Sam just told her that her being there filled a big hole in his life....REALLY, so the solution is to rip that hole open again?

But I do like the story idea of the whole thing and at least it is consistent with what we know about Mary from the past.

Question is - will she be around long enough to actually redeem herself with the Boys other than simply sacrificing herself for the greater good?

With Lucifer in the wind and in need of urgent vessel replacement/ repair and Mary wandering the streets (cause....does she have a car??) - I see possibility for my prediction again, that Lucifer might use her as a vessel at some point...

But one step at a time.

PNP
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kate38
kate38
11. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:29 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:29 PM EDT
"Question is - will she be around long enough to actually redeem herself with the Boys other than simply sacrificing herself for the greater good?

With Lucifer in the wind and in need of urgent vessel replacement/ repair and Mary wandering the streets (cause....does she have a car??) - I see possibility for my prediction again, that Lucifer might use her as a vessel at some point...

But one step at a time.

PNP"
Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!

I think you hit the nail right on the head with that one :)
Luci's wearing her to the prom :)

Kate
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PigNaPoke
PigNaPoke
12. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:31 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:32 PM EDT
"Hey, PNP:)

Hubby asked that same question!

I think you're both right. Castiel had to wait for Amelia to actually die to be reunited with her, so I think you don't get the actual "person" in your little heaven until that person dies.

But you apparently CAN have a repeating memory. Sam had a holiday dinner with an entire family that was probably still alive. So, some people's heaven apparently consists of a frozen-in-time memory on a repeating loop. Using that logic, Mary can re-live having her children (frozen at those ages). I guess she could also have her time-locked memory of John, too.

Interesting that, assuming John went to heaven at the end of AHBL, they never found each other.

What do you think?

Kate"
Oookaaay, I may be able to buy that (with the repeating memory)....but it is a little strange....they didn't have to have her say that she was with the boys IN Heaven.

I understood John to also be in her Heaven fantasy - you didn't?

She said something like "I miss John......in heaven with you and now I am here and John is gone and my boys are too...."

But then wasn't it also said in "Dark Side of the Moon" that a shared Heaven is rare and for soul-mates etc?

MAYBE they weren't meant to have eternal bliss together?

OK - gotta sleep now....more later. :) Night!
PNP
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kate38
kate38
13. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:32 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:32 PM EDT
"I am just saying, I do understand that she IS confused and needs some time to adjust - however, I believe that time should be spent TOGETHER with the boys and not apart.

Especially after Sam just told her that her being there filled a big hole in his life....REALLY, so the solution is to rip that hole open again?

PNP"
Exactly!!!!! Both of your sons just told you how much it means to them having you with them, and you STILL think of your own needs before theirs and break their hearts by leaving.

AANNDD she took John's journal with her!!! After Sam told her that the book makes him and Dean feel like John is still with them. Selfish, selfish woman...
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kate38
kate38
14. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:34 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:34 PM EDT
"Oookaaay, I may be able to buy that (with the repeating memory)....but it is a little strange....they didn't have to have her say that she was with the boys IN Heaven.

I understood John to also be in her Heaven fantasy - you didn't?

She said something like "I miss John......in heaven with you and now I am here and John is gone and my boys are too...."

But then wasn't it also said in "Dark Side of the Moon" that a shared Heaven is rare and for soul-mates etc?

MAYBE they weren't meant to have eternal bliss together?

OK - gotta sleep now....more later. :) Night!
PNP"
Oh, I must not have been clear. I think her time-locked memory of John is there, too -- even though the actual John seems to be elsewhere in heaven.

Kate
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
15. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 27 2016, 11:51 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 27 2016, 11:51 PM EDT
I still have to read the comments, and I'll write more on it tomorrow, but I kinda thought this episode was more disjointed crap. Do you find this valuable?    
journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
16. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 28 2016, 12:16 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 28 2016, 12:26 AM EDT
The music was AWFUL..so distracting. I hate the "comedy" music. Just BE funny....don't warn us with stupid music that we are about to see something funny! Cas would not have teamed up with Crowley so easily. That whole storyline should have been done away with in this episode. The ghost story was forced and secondary and really??? the father "went mad" (according to Mary at the end) and "walled himself up while he was still alive". How is that possible? Why not just shoot yourself? I love Jensen's acting more than anyone else's acting on the planet, but tonight, the one who stole the episode again was Jared. His talk with Dean at the grave about how immersing yourself in work never fixes anything...I heard Sam AND Jared saying that and it just felt completely like it came from the heart. Yet, for me, Sam's flinch at the slamming door was over acted. Dean's pulling away I DID NOT expect. I do not believe they would let their newly-arrived mom just wander off into the world alone!
Rowena tricking Lucifer was interesting. Again though, not enough time for character development with Rick Springfield who was doing a very decent job!

I didn't feel that Sam Smith's acting was that great. Even for a fish-out-of-water character who doesn't fit in, Mary felt wooden to me. The only moment of "real" for me was when she had sympathy for the child ghost. And she already said she didn't remember anything from the time she was dead...suddenly we learn that she remembers everything she felt while dead in her imagined heaven with her family as she remembered them. For a second I thought she might ask to die so she coukd be with John again.

Having her alive is wrecking the myth of her and I do not like that!

Overall, a disjointed, utterly forgettable episode. Not scary (the stereotypically creepy doll only made me roll my eyes...
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
17. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 28 2016, 12:22 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 28 2016, 12:22 AM EDT
...at how cliche it was.

Other ghost storylines have been scarier and more emotionally compelling.

So you guys think Lucifer is going to posses Mary, huh? Probably. She already appeared as Eve in probably the most forgettable "big bad" storyline of the whole series. Even if that only looked like Mary...if they let Lucifer posses her, it will feel like a retread of that. Based on tonight, I hate to say it, but I don't think Sam Smith has the acting ability to play Lucifer.

Disappointing. Totally.
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journalbookbinder
journalbookbinder
18. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 28 2016, 12:43 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 28 2016, 12:43 AM EDT
It feels like, as Carver was leaving at the end of last season (and I still think season 11 should have ended with the awesome "don't call me Shurley"), he or the writers just said, "I dunno...we don't have any better ideas so what if we give Dean his mom back?" and they ran with that for lack of anything else. Carver then tossed this "Mary hot-potato" to Dabb who immediately let it fall flat on the floor...not knowing what to do with it.

This show used to have a plan every season. Maybe the plan will reveal itself eventually, but right now the show feels like it's fumbling around in the dark with no direction.

If Sam Smith could portray Mary with some passion or anger....that would help my attitude. But Mary has just been flat.
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kate38
kate38
19. RE: Let's all talk "The Foundry" (S12 E3) here!
Oct 28 2016, 6:42 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 28 2016, 6:44 AM EDT
"
I didn't feel that Sam Smith's acting was that great. Even for a fish-out-of-water character who doesn't fit in, Mary felt wooden to me.

"
Hey, JBB --

I really liked this episode (and the previous two) a LOT more than you did, but I completely agree with you about Sam Smith. I thought she was flat and cold from the very first episode of the season, but I thought it was just me. I feel better that you've noticed it, too. At this point, I think maybe it's just her acting.

It has to be daunting having to emote when you're next to two emotional powerhouses like Jared and Jensen -- I guess their talent could overshadow anyone's. But somehow Misha has managed to be an amazing Castiel, and JDM seemed to have instant chemistry with them, so I can't just let her off the hook with that.

I have found her acting disappointing all season. If the writers/producers see that she is not "connecting" with the viewers, maybe they'll kill her off early. They may be setting that up already anyway. She clearly misses the "imaginarium" she created for herself in heaven, with her sons frozen in eternal childhood and John still alive and forever young. Maybe she'll be willing to die to go back there.

Kate
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